Who is to Blame for Haye-Wlad Not Happening?

[iamasadlittleboy]

Haye's fault first fight.

 

But this time its Wlad, I dunno if its mind games just to spite Haye. I think both need this fight but Haye does need it before October and Klitschko are messing him around.

 

I think Wlad is stepping aside and sneaking a fight with Haye to Vitali.

 

It is something Wlad does. Ducks the better fighters and leaves them to tougher brother Vitali.

 

Sure did duck that Chagaev bloke and that Povetkin fella....

 

No Golota, Tua, Grant, Mercer and Rahman (when they could still fight), Maskaev, Valuev off the top of my head.

 

People give Larry Holmes a hard time for missing fights. Lets not forget that the best fighter Wlad has beaten in his reign is either Eddie Chambers or Calvin Brock.

 

Lets look at this reasonably:

Wlad first won his world title in 2000 6 days later Golota fought Tyson then went missing for 3 years. When was that fight supposed to have taken place Rob? Between Grant castrating Bowe or before Grant stopped him?

 

Tua as we all know only got 1 world title fight, that was a month after Wlad first won a world title. By the time Wlad had recovered from the Brewster and Sanders losses and won another title Tua was facing the likes of Maurice Wheeler...so again, when were they supposed to face off? Before Wlad had become champion? After Tua last to Byrd?

 

Grant...when was he good? Before Wlad had a title? After he had broken his ankle? After Guinn had beaten him? Again when should this fight have taken place?

 

Mercer again would have required some illogical time

 

Rahman was good...erm..when? Again he kept losing, and was at his prime when exactly?

 

Maskaev was meant to face Vitali (pre injury), though saying Wlad avoided him is relatively backward. Oleg was too busy fighting the likes of Craig Tomlinson and Julius Francis, or Peter Okhello. When was Oleg that good anyway?

 

Valuev I'm just ignoring anyway. He was never any cop....oh sod it, you've got me here...when was this fight supposed to happen? When Valuev was humping Ruiz? When he was getting a controversial win over Donald?...

 

Glad you found another name Ruiz also no Holyfield fight. Another 2 names.

 

I'm sorry Scott but one minute your not familiar with these fighters and the next you've Boxrec'd. Boxrec is handy but not the be all and end all.

 

You discount Rahman and Mercer as not being any good or available, so how come they were when washed up?

 

People tend to forget that it was Wlad that was heading to the top before Vitali, so at the time he was linked with the other fighters like Tua, Grant etc. Also Shannon Briggs another that he never fought.

Grant was viewed in the US as the next top Heavyweight and the man that would succeed Lennox. Tua had constantly fought anyone who would get in the ring with him - Maskaev, Lennox, Ruiz, Ibeabuchi and Rahman to name a few.

 

Maskaev and Golota were logical fights to make. Some fights don't happen cos someone loses etc but when you start stacking the names up as people do for Larry Holmes then you have to wonder why.

 

This list is getting long now.

 

Easy defenses, like Audley was for Haye. I'm assuming that Mercer brought some TV exposure in the US and some money, Rahman was iirc, a late replacement who stepped in with a couple of weeks to go. That to me is fine.

 

Again when should this Grant fight have happened? He was fighting in a world eliminator in 1999 whilst Wlad was at European level, would you have expected Grant to accommodate and give up his fight with Lewis?

 

Tua also had won an eliminator (IBF 1998) why would he give that up to face the huge Klitschko who was still a stay at home type of fighter that had little power to pull a fighter away from a collision course with Lennox?

 

Briggs was stopped by Lewis, a few years later he was out pointed by Fields (Wlad becoming champion afterwards) then lost to McCline. There was no time in which this fight made sense.

 

Golota was never logical. He missed 5 years of the decade (2000-2003 and 2005-2007) to begin with and prior to 2000 was 6-4...go on, just name a year where this was "logical"?

 

Maskaev you could have made a case for in late 06 or 07 though Mask was injured through 07 and owed Sam peter a shot when he came back anyway. I wasn't familiar as to how or when they would have gotten in the ring with Wlad...and I'm still not. Much like i don't see any time in which Foreman v Lennox made sense...

[WelshDevilRob]

It doesn't matter who he did or didn't fight. They were all utter shite. Haye isn't as bad as any of them and he's ducking him to fight Chisora.

 

And he's fighting Chisora for Peanuts. At this stage in his career, why risk it for a fight that means nothing to nobody except Chisoras family and his ex girlfriend. (Who wants Del to have a beating)

[iamasadlittleboy]

It doesn't matter who he did or didn't fight. They were all utter shite. Haye isn't as bad as any of them and he's ducking him to fight Chisora.

 

And he's fighting Chisora for Peanuts. At this stage in his career, why risk it for a fight that means nothing to nobody except Chisoras family and his ex girlfriend. (Who wants Del to have a beating)

 

lol// lol//

[gavpowell]

Chisora's getting peanuts, but I'd have thought Wlad was getting a fair amount as champion, surely? I would have thought he'd want a fight to shake off any ring rust and get back in the ring ASAP, though I'm not sure whether that's the reason he's given.

[WelshDevilRob]

Haye's fault first fight.

 

But this time its Wlad, I dunno if its mind games just to spite Haye. I think both need this fight but Haye does need it before October and Klitschko are messing him around.

 

I think Wlad is stepping aside and sneaking a fight with Haye to Vitali.

 

It is something Wlad does. Ducks the better fighters and leaves them to tougher brother Vitali.

 

Sure did duck that Chagaev bloke and that Povetkin fella....

 

No Golota, Tua, Grant, Mercer and Rahman (when they could still fight), Maskaev, Valuev off the top of my head.

 

People give Larry Holmes a hard time for missing fights. Lets not forget that the best fighter Wlad has beaten in his reign is either Eddie Chambers or Calvin Brock.

 

Lets look at this reasonably:

Wlad first won his world title in 2000 6 days later Golota fought Tyson then went missing for 3 years. When was that fight supposed to have taken place Rob? Between Grant castrating Bowe or before Grant stopped him?

 

Tua as we all know only got 1 world title fight, that was a month after Wlad first won a world title. By the time Wlad had recovered from the Brewster and Sanders losses and won another title Tua was facing the likes of Maurice Wheeler...so again, when were they supposed to face off? Before Wlad had become champion? After Tua last to Byrd?

 

Grant...when was he good? Before Wlad had a title? After he had broken his ankle? After Guinn had beaten him? Again when should this fight have taken place?

 

Mercer again would have required some illogical time

 

Rahman was good...erm..when? Again he kept losing, and was at his prime when exactly?

 

Maskaev was meant to face Vitali (pre injury), though saying Wlad avoided him is relatively backward. Oleg was too busy fighting the likes of Craig Tomlinson and Julius Francis, or Peter Okhello. When was Oleg that good anyway?

 

Valuev I'm just ignoring anyway. He was never any cop....oh sod it, you've got me here...when was this fight supposed to happen? When Valuev was humping Ruiz? When he was getting a controversial win over Donald?...

 

Glad you found another name Ruiz also no Holyfield fight. Another 2 names.

 

I'm sorry Scott but one minute your not familiar with these fighters and the next you've Boxrec'd. Boxrec is handy but not the be all and end all.

 

You discount Rahman and Mercer as not being any good or available, so how come they were when washed up?

 

People tend to forget that it was Wlad that was heading to the top before Vitali, so at the time he was linked with the other fighters like Tua, Grant etc. Also Shannon Briggs another that he never fought.

Grant was viewed in the US as the next top Heavyweight and the man that would succeed Lennox. Tua had constantly fought anyone who would get in the ring with him - Maskaev, Lennox, Ruiz, Ibeabuchi and Rahman to name a few.

 

Maskaev and Golota were logical fights to make. Some fights don't happen cos someone loses etc but when you start stacking the names up as people do for Larry Holmes then you have to wonder why.

 

This list is getting long now.

 

Easy defenses, like Audley was for Haye. I'm assuming that Mercer brought some TV exposure in the US and some money, Rahman was iirc, a late replacement who stepped in with a couple of weeks to go. That to me is fine.

 

Again when should this Grant fight have happened? He was fighting in a world eliminator in 1999 whilst Wlad was at European level, would you have expected Grant to accommodate and give up his fight with Lewis?

 

Tua also had won an eliminator (IBF 1998) why would he give that up to face the huge Klitschko who was still a stay at home type of fighter that had little power to pull a fighter away from a collision course with Lennox?

 

Briggs was stopped by Lewis, a few years later he was out pointed by Fields (Wlad becoming champion afterwards) then lost to McCline. There was no time in which this fight made sense.

 

Golota was never logical. He missed 5 years of the decade (2000-2003 and 2005-2007) to begin with and prior to 2000 was 6-4...go on, just name a year where this was "logical"?

 

Maskaev you could have made a case for in late 06 or 07 though Mask was injured through 07 and owed Sam peter a shot when he came back anyway. I wasn't familiar as to how or when they would have gotten in the ring with Wlad...and I'm still not. Much like i don't see any time in which Foreman v Lennox made sense...

 

Wlad had plenty of easy defences especially when he was WBO Champion. (From 2000)

He was meant to fight Lennox Lewis after he beat Monte Barrett on a Lewis undercard but then went the WBO route as he wasn't ready. Michael Grant with similar experience went for the Lewis fight and had a proposed match with Vitali turned down.

 

Its like none of these guys were available and I can see where you are coming from but he fights Frans Botha in 2002 - a guy already blasted out by Lennox and who had even earlier drawn with Briggs. I can't see how in every instance fighters are fighting the other best fighters but Wladimir is not involved.

 

Even Lamon Brewster who beat him had no real credible wins going into that fight and had lost to Shufford and Ettiene.

 

Mike Tyson is floating around the division but obviously the Klitschkos aren't big enough names.

 

Vitali pulled out of a couple of fights with Hasim Rahman when the fight would have been competitive. A Wlad fight could have been made. I don't agree that Rahman wasn't a good fighter - he chinned Lennox Lewis and to Ko'd Corrie Sanders in a War. Plus he had very good fights with some of the best in the division.

 

I can see the vaild points your making, Scott. I just don't agree that the Heavyweights I said were bad fighters. (With the exception of Valuev who only has size). Not all fights can be made but there are too many names missing for me that would have been more competitive fights.

I think Gav said Klitschko was with Sauerland for awhile and maybe thats why he was facing David Bostice and Charles Shufford.

[iamasadlittleboy]

They were bad fights by the time Wlad was champion, had Wlad turned pro 3 or 4 years earlier they would have been excellent fights circa 1998. Tyson in the mid 00's was shot to shit anyway. Look at 00's heavies not guys from the 90's. The Botha fight should be criticised, just like the Rahman and Mercer fights, though Wlads not the only one having easy defenses and at least he was active.

 

Rahman v Sanders was again before Wlad was a champion, was Rahman going to turn down a fight with Lewis? Or we talking mid 00's? When he was struggling with Barrett, drawing with Toney and being stopped by Oleg?

 

I can't blame him for not being ready for Lewis either, no point in rushing a guy into a loss.

[gavpowell]

 

My apologises to Scott as it was you who hadn't seen these guys including Mercer? Didn't you see him fight Lennox or Tommy Morrison?

 

To key you in on a timeline of when I was able to graduate from a kid turning on the tv and reaslising boxing was on terrestrial, to when I started to really pay atention to the sport as a teenager:

 

 

First fight I remember watching in full is Bruno v Emmen (Nov '91). I was 10.

 

After that, it's a blur of the odd eubank/benn fight being televised that I happened to see bits of, and then a few years later I was channel hopping on sky and discovered boxing was on - Colin Dunne, so nothing startling. Then Naz was fighting Paul Ingle, and I'd always been a Naz fan based on what i'd seen of him, so listened to the audio of the sky PPV(the video was scrambled as i wasn't allowed to buy it - my dad refusing to give me the viewing card #). That's about 1999, when I really got hooked on the sport. Think it was Naz v Sotgo or Bungu was the first one I was able to watch on PPV.

 

I missed the 80s and 90s really, and have just watched a few fights here and there for the heavyweights, so I'd guess i've seen maybe one or two Morrison fights, Mccall maybe once, Lewis four or five times and most of Tyson's career thanks to DVDVD. I've only seen 'prime' Holyfield in one of the Bowe fights, no other Bowe fights at all, no Tillis, Tubbs, Thomas etc etc. And maybe one or two Mercer fights but if I have I can't tell you which ones.

[brooklynbrawler]

Why isn't there a "Who cares?" option? ;)

 

I'm fed up with all the back and forth.

This time it looks like a combination of Wlad's commitment to Chisora, coupled with Haye's inability to shift to a suitable date.

Noone in their right mind should wait 10 months to fight...so I personally feel he's quite right to go ahead and take another fight in the meantime?

 

Fed up of it anyway.

 

There's always something.

If it's not money, venues, mandatories, fake rivalries or injuries....it's sunk as low as Royal Weddings, available dates and TV scheduling clashes.

Until they're standing in front of each other on fight night, I've lost interest.

[Ton]

Why isn't there a "Who cares?" option? ;)

 

I'm fed up with all the back and forth.

This time it looks like a combination of Wlad's commitment to Chisora, coupled with Haye's inability to shift to a suitable date.

Noone in their right mind should wait 10 months to fight...so I personally feel he's quite right to go ahead and take another fight in the meantime?

 

Fed up of it anyway.

 

There's always something.

If it's not money, venues, mandatories, fake rivalries or injuries....it's sunk as low as Royal Weddings, available dates and TV scheduling clashes.

Until they're standing in front of each other on fight night, I've lost interest.

 

Here here

[McBride]

Definitely the most sensible post in the thread by B.B.

[grapevine241]

haye & his team obviously

[brooklynbrawler]

In my opinion, Wlad was just always the "younger brother of Vitali."

He was never really appreciated as a great champion, and I for one, didn't rate him anywhere near the level of his brother or Lennox Lewis at the time.

He had suffered a couple of losses, there were questionmarks over his chin, and he didn't appear to have half the skill that other heavyweights possessed.

Since then though, he's gone on to a huge reign as the divisional number 1, and has adapted his fighting style to suit his physical attributes, which although not being pretty, is very very effective.

The unfortunate thing about it, is that by the time he did settle into the role as number 1 heavyweight in the world, the division had gone completely stale.

He's beaten anyone worth beating since cementing his place at the top, because in the early parts of the decade, the biggest fights were against Tyson, Lewis, and a parade of ageing US fighters who kept getting shown again and again on TV, no matter what they did.

Whether he is unfortunate to be around during one of the worst heavyweight periods, or whether he can put his success down to this very fact, remains up for debate, but I don't think you can really accuse him of ducking anybody.

You've also seen the outrageous demands being made by second rate heavyweights just to challenge for a world title (Briggs being a prime example - he demanded 2m euros ffs!).

It's fair to say that this also plays a part in many of the bigger fringe fights never getting signed.

[Ton]

Since the fight IS happening, July 2nd I've voted Wlad because should it not happen, it'll be because of Wlad pulling out, being only 9 weeks after his Chisora fight.

[Johnny Walker]

Let's line matters up just for the sake of clarity, and I'll throw aside any affinity I have for corn rows on this one:

 

Wlad: Chambers, Brock, Ibragimov, Byrd, Chagaev, Rahman, Peter, Thompson, Brewster, Austin.

 

Vitali: Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Johnson, Sosnowski and Briggs

 

Haye: Valuev, Ruiz, Harrison

 

Not only did Haye get in the championship door last, long after the Klitschko's has started facing contenders (I didn't include Vitali's first reign), he did it against the weakest titlist available after having backed out on both brothers. As for the level of competition, I credit Haye with eradicating the sport of Ruiz who was arguably a fringe contender at that point, but not a top contender. Harrison? Please!

 

Of the fighters I listed for Wlad, easily seven of them were top 10 at the time Wlad defeated them, three of which were titlists.

 

Of the six I listed for Vitali, four were top ten contenders and one a titlist.

 

Taking my personal like of Haye out of this, the guys has some big nuts talking garbage about the Klitschko's, ESPECIALLY given his body of work. NOW he's lining up to face Chagaev, which is a legitimate heavyweight top ten contender and to me easily the best heavyweight he has ever faced....but given that Wlad already did that two years ago and all that he has said about Wlad needing to legitimize his legacy, I find the move laughable.

[Ton]

Comparing records just to claim Haye doesn't have the right to call someone out or bad mouth them is clutching at straws. Boxers have forever been calling other people out to get noticed, this has been no different.

 

Haye is the ONLY fight anyone wants to see against a Klitschko and it was almost made but for some games from team K2!

 

Anyone discrediting Haye's talents etc are doing so just from sheer dislike!

 

Indeed he's not got as good a record as Wlad or Vitali, but he has been in 2 poor divisions. He wants to fight them (yeah yeah he pulled out before whaaaa) but they have messed him about this time round. Either out of spite, or because they want no part of Haye and he potentially upsetting the cushy domination they enjoy.

[gavpowell]

Being in 2 poor divisions is neither strictly accurate nor much of an excuse - at cruiser the talent was decent and Haye did well to win the lineal title, especially as quickly as he did. At heavy, he has been feeding on some of the worst of a weak division and criticising the Klitschkos' records at the same time, all the while taking 6 months off with every fight and taking 2 or 3 months to even announce opponents.

[WelshDevilRob]

Being in 2 poor divisions is neither strictly accurate nor much of an excuse - at cruiser the talent was decent and Haye did well to win the lineal title, especially as quickly as he did. At heavy, he has been feeding on some of the worst of a weak division and criticising the Klitschkos' records at the same time, all the while taking 6 months off with every fight and taking 2 or 3 months to even announce opponents.

 

I agree he hasn't been as active as he should have been though he defended the title pretty quickly against his No.1 contender after winning it against Valuev away from home.

 

When he moved up, they were slow in getting a fight because they were putting on the weight and seeing how he operated - quite sensible and given his age, there was no need to rush.

 

He had the cancelled fight with Wlad the 1st time regardless of Why he pulled out it obviously leaves a gap in the record. The other gap is from the long one last year that disappointingly ended with a Harrison bout. In that gap his wife had his child and it was documented that she was ill and he stated he wanted time with them.

[londoner]

This is what i think should happen:

 

The Klitschko brothers ignore Haye completely. This will then lead Haye to whine about how he's being ducked etc. Then he will have to make a decision:

 

Does he retire with a 26 fight record or does he fight the biggest names out there, risking his WBA title, while the Klitschkos continue to add to their legacy?

 

The point being this: The Klitschkos don't need Haye as much as people might think they do. They are both HOFers. Their legacies are sealed IMO. Haye has 26 bouts and no legacy.

 

The brothers should continue to fight everyone out there and let Haye do the same. Should Haye continue to win, he can then get a shot at the Klitchskos.

 

Haye simply wants to do a "Buster Douglas" and try to "snatch" the World title away and then retire. He's looking at short term legacy. I say make him go down the long route, fight into his 30s like everyone else and win the World titles the old fashioned way by earning a shot at them.

[londoner]

I have written a lot more in this thread: http://budweiserboxing.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=7962

[Ton]

"The brothers should continue to fight everyone out there and let Haye do the same. Should Haye continue to win, he can then get a shot at the Klitchskos. "

 

The thing is, he aint gonna get any credit for anyone he beats! Maybe a little bit of credit for a Chagaev win, but that'll only be because Wlad softened him up for him ;)

[WelshDevilRob]

"The brothers should continue to fight everyone out there and let Haye do the same. Should Haye continue to win, he can then get a shot at the Klitchskos. "

 

The thing is, he aint gonna get any credit for anyone he beats! Maybe a little bit of credit for a Chagaev win, but that'll only be because Wlad softened him up for him ;)

 

Chagaev was declared medically unfit to fight Valuev due to the Hepatitis but then Wlad went and fought the medically unfit fighter, who hadn't looked at his best in quite sometime. Hopefully, Chagaev is fully fit by the time Haye fights him.

 

Also, Lamon Brewster wasn't medically fit to fight Wladimir in the rematch and probably the only reason he got the opportunity - he was basically fighting with one eye.

 

The Klitschkos have cleverly taken the only other legit option - Adamek - away from Haye and have been negotiating with him for awhile. (Possibly cos Wlad never intended on fighting Haye in July).

 

Haye will fight Chagaev as he is the No.1 contender and its time he got his shot. Though it'll be an easy win for Haye.

[iamasadlittleboy]

Had Haye signed the damned contract the Adamek fight would have been dropped. Povetkin is a suitable opponent as well....

[londoner]

"The brothers should continue to fight everyone out there and let Haye do the same. Should Haye continue to win, he can then get a shot at the Klitchskos. "

 

The thing is, he aint gonna get any credit for anyone he beats! Maybe a little bit of credit for a Chagaev win, but that'll only be because Wlad softened him up for him ;)

 

That is true. But, the man continues to talk about how he plans to retire. So he clearly has no intention other than to "Do a Buster Douglas" and hopefully beat the brothers. Then just retire with a "stolen legacy". Had he done it the long way, he'd have lost a lot more than once. HW is a division where guys have a puncher's chance. That would be Haye's nightmare.

[grapevine241]

Let's line matters up just for the sake of clarity, and I'll throw aside any affinity I have for corn rows on this one:

 

Wlad: Chambers, Brock, Ibragimov, Byrd, Chagaev, Rahman, Peter, Thompson, Brewster, Austin.

 

Vitali: Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Johnson, Sosnowski and Briggs

 

Haye: Valuev, Ruiz, Harrison

 

Not only did Haye get in the championship door last, long after the Klitschko's has started facing contenders (I didn't include Vitali's first reign), he did it against the weakest titlist available after having backed out on both brothers. As for the level of competition, I credit Haye with eradicating the sport of Ruiz who was arguably a fringe contender at that point, but not a top contender. Harrison? Please!

 

Of the fighters I listed for Wlad, easily seven of them were top 10 at the time Wlad defeated them, three of which were titlists.

 

Of the six I listed for Vitali, four were top ten contenders and one a titlist.

 

Taking my personal like of Haye out of this, the guys has some big nuts talking garbage about the Klitschko's, ESPECIALLY given his body of work. NOW he's lining up to face Chagaev, which is a legitimate heavyweight top ten contender and to me easily the best heavyweight he has ever faced....but given that Wlad already did that two years ago and all that he has said about Wlad needing to legitimize his legacy, I find the move laughable.

 

goodp//